Fritz Springmeier Interview pt2

Wayne Morris:
Some of these alters that are created are not even animals or people, they can be inanimate objects.  

Fritz Springmeier:
Only a few of the front alters of an alter system will realize that they are human.  

Wayne Morris:
You have gone into in the book that I have, "The Illuminati Formula ..." quite a bit about Star Trek. What have you learned about the technical manuals published about Star Trek?  

Fritz Springmeier:
I have observed programmed multiples - some that have been untreated, and some that have been untreated - who are totally obsessed with everything involved with Star Trek. A former deprogramming assistant gave me information on the Star Trek programming and I could sit and confirm it by my own observations of multiples. Over the years a number of highly technical manuals on Star Trek equipment and themes have been published. When you look at these manuals - the best way of explaining all the money and time that was spent to develop these complex manuals is that they are serving a mind control purpose. Knowing how the programming is put in, I know why they were done a certain way.
Boeing Plant in Seattle has a lot of tunnels underneath it, and some of those tunnels are used for programming. Someone who worked at Boeing was telling me how workers would, on a normal day it was standard for them to sneak off to go into the underground tunnels and watch Star Trek movies. I thought that was interesting.  

Wayne Morris:
Can you describe the technical manuals and the level of technical detail that they went into?  

Fritz Springmeier:
They have maps of the universe. Where a map of the Milky Way could be used is when you are splintering the mind of a victim and you are looking for some kind of a pattern to restructure it, you would use something like a galaxy map to recreate their mind. You have star clusters, planets. When you wanted to have a whole group of alters, personalities that would only relate to themselves, you could put them on one planet and the only way alters could communicate from one "planet" to another would be through some type of "beam me up" type of thing. When you were being "beamed", you would actually be dissociated and going into trance.
And you have different locomotion devices that are built into the system which are actually methods for the mind going into dissociation. When you are electro-shocking someone, and a flash of light is hitting them at the same time you are applying electroshock, you can tell the person that they are traveling through space, or who knows what, different scripts can be built in.
The technical manuals will have section indexes and when they structure the mind controlled slaves they build sections and those sections are coded and you will find the technical manuals have number codes, color codes which is another aspect of the mind control all the way through. I talked about the 13x13x13 grid earlier within Cisco's system. If you want to add another dimension to your cube, then you add color coding for certain alters.
Each of your alters typically will receive a color code and that ties back in to computers that are built within their minds. These computers are built by taking dissociated parts of the mind and making them into a computer - computers that control each section - and then those computers are in turn controlled by deeper computers. It's very complex but you can certainly see when you look at the technical manuals put together for the Star Trek theme that they dovetail perfectly with what the programming needs are.  

Wayne Morris:
These things are purportedly just paraphernalia items for a very limited market of hardcore Trekkies - the price tag seems to be incongruent with the amount of work that has gone into making them.  

Fritz Springmeier:
Exactly. That was my thought. My Dad was an engineer and I have looked over a lot of drafting projects. I worked for the Federal Highway Administration for a while so I know the type of engineering work that would go into building a highway, and I am just amazed at the technical detail, engineering, graphics and everything that goes into these technical manuals for something that is a "fiction", a movie ... we are not talking about something that is real life.  

Wayne Morris:
Since we are talking about movies, I would like to ask you what has Hollywood's involvement been in mind control slavery?  

Fritz Springmeier:
The Illuminati and the Mob have controlled Hollywood. Another aspect of this is that a lot of your slaves are actors, eg. Roseanne Barr, who I mentioned earlier; Madonna; Marilyn Monroe; each of these women was a programmed multiple. You have a lot of slaves who are acting for them. One of the benefits of having programmed multiples is the way their minds have been structured. Some of them are very good at memorizing scripts or getting into fictional roles. As I mentioned earlier, some of the movies, like "Fantasia" - Disneyland itself was a programming center. It was more than their just putting out movies that were for programming, but they actually created a lot of these movies with the codes. Another one I didn't mention is "I Dream of Jeannie" - which is the Delta alter "Jeannie" programming with the trigger "your wish is my command."
Another aspect of Hollywood that comes in here - there are fictional movies, at least they purport to be fictional movies, which are actually showing, amazingly, top secret Illuminati ceremonies and Illuminati history, methods. It's really blown me away to watch some of these things. "Hellraiser 3" shows gatekeepers. Watch "Bell, Book and Candle" or "Curse of the Voodoo". Not only do they show Illuminati ceremonies, but some of these movies actually show the mind control. I would recommend that the listeners, if they wanted to learn more, watch the Charles Bronson movie, "Telethon", or you could watch "The Manchurian Candidate" or "Videodrome", "Labyrinth." I go into explaining how "Labyrinth" is a programming script in the Volume 2 book. "Transfer 2", "Attack of the Robots", "Attack of the Puppet People" ... we could go on and on. Jane Fonda's "The Point of No Return" - that connects in with the OTO. That's one of the occult fronts of the very high-up, powerful organizations involved with the Illuminati.  

Wayne Morris:
What do you think is the purpose of having mind control slaves in the Hollywood industry in terms of the impact on the public? What are they trying to accomplish with these films, and are they manipulating these actors in some way to have some effect on the public?  

Fritz Springmeier:
There is manipulation in many different ways. I guess one thing I could say that builds upon your last question and also answers your current question, is the late Anton LaVey, for instance, who was the head of the Church of Satan. He was a mind control programmer and he was very close with Hollywood. By using him in Hollywood as an advisor to movies, and in other ways (he tied in with some underground film-making too) it gave him legitimacy. Another person who also connected in some with Hollywood, who was also connected with Anton Lavey, was Michael Aquino who connected in with military intelligence. He was another programmer and he was in charge of another Satanic organization, The Temple of Set.  

Wayne Morris:
Which is an offshoot of Anton Lavey's Church of Satan ...  

Fritz Springmeier:
Aquino was one of Lavey's henchmen until he formed his own organization.  

Wayne Morris:
And Michael Aquino has been implicated in the Presidio daycare child abuse scandal as well ...  

Fritz Springmeier:
A very disgusting person like the rest of these programmers. Another tie-in here with Hollywood is Kenneth Anger who was a member of Lavey's group, and he was a film-maker. He is also someone who was infatuated with Aleister Crowley. Kenneth Anger danced with Shirley Temple when he was a child, and Shirley Temple as you know ties in with Walt Disney, and with the mind control too. I believe she was a victim. There is something they do to the children, it's called brainstem scarring and when they scar the brainstem they create photographic memory. That's a whole other subject, but I believe that this child prodigy, Shirley Temple, was also one of their mind control victims. That was prior to WWII. She was, I believe, a multiple.  

Wayne Morris:
I wonder if you could just explain briefly how you think that works in terms of damaging the brainstem and how that would affect these memory abilities ...  

Fritz Springmeier:
An analogy would be like when somebody does weightlifting - the idea of lifting weights is that you are destroying the muscles and the body overcompensates for the destruction and builds the muscles bigger next time around, like callouses. You damage your skin until your body overcompensates and creates callouses. When your brainstem is electronically scarred, the body overcompensates and rebuilds the brainstem in such a way that you have a photographic memory. So then if you scar somebody's brainstem to start with, and then you traumatize them so the mind splits into multiple personalities, each of those personalities generally takes on the characteristics of its predecessor and has a photographic memory.  

Wayne Morris:
It seems that would be very useful in terms of some of the ways operatives are utilized, eg. for espionage. Was that a common technique used in the conditioning, scarring of the brainstem, photographic memory?  

Fritz Springmeier:
It is now. During the 1930's when they were creating multiples, they knew that trauma itself helped mental abilities, so there were a lot of just scientists, who weren't part of the Illuminati who were traumatizing their kids to improve their thinking abilities. It's really a warped way of thinking, but there is some efficacy to the methodology.  

Wayne Morris:
Just to jump back to the culture industries, and how they have been involved, how has the music industry been involved in mind control?  

Fritz Springmeier:
Good question. That takes us back to WWII when first the UK, then Canada, then our country was totally mobilized for the war effort, and they mobilized Hollywood for the war effort. The US military hired all these entertainers for the USO shows - it was placed under the Special Services Division of the Army. They brought in people like Bob Hope who was working for MI-6. Bob Hope is very skilled with mind control. You had earlier asked me if the USA was using programmed multiples? The USA was using mind control during WWII, but not the type of programmed multiplicity that Mengele developed. But during WWII, they were using the USO magicians to pass coded messages to the troops. To say and do things for their intelligence work. What group of people can move from one military unit to another without causing suspicion of the enemy? Entertainers. They used them for US and British intelligence.  

Wayne Morris:
So they would be used to pass messages to people in the know ...  

Fritz Springmeier:
Right. Bob Hope was an intelligence operative for British Intelligence. He was used in the USO a lot. The USO created at least 200 bands. A lot of the bands we know of now Guy Lombardo, Lawrence Welk, Sam Donahue - these were all created in the USO program. When the USO program ceased at the end of WWII, you had this whole music industry that was basically created by the Intelligence organizations, and it was heavily salted with their intelligence operatives. It was a natural thing for the CIA - created out of the OSS - and the NSA to continue to use the music industry as it had been used in WWII for intelligence purposes. Our entire music industry here in the USA is actually an intelligence front for the Illuminati.  

Wayne Morris:
Hmm. I know you have written specifically about the country music industry. I wonder if you could talk about that industry's involvement.  

Fritz Springmeier:
I am not trying to single out country and western music. Some people might think Fritz has it in for country and western music - no, I actually enjoy a lot of that music, so I don't have anything against that particular brand, or that particular industry. I mean, the rock and roll music industry is also heavily used and ties in with the mind control too. A lot of the songs in country and western music are deliberately written for programming, but the songs evoke thoughts of god, country - so you have your front there. You have to understand how these people work. They try to play upon things that we get kneejerk reactions to. If I sing a song about god, how can anybody accuse me of being bad? If I sing patriotic songs, how can anyone accuse me of not being a good person? I sing about god and country ...
You look at the front they create, and then they do what they want to behind that front. The whole C&W industry is just part and parcel of the mind control, and of drug running. Because these C&W singers travel from one city to another, they are the perfect vehicles for moving drugs. They are a very important part of the Illuminati drug running.  

Wayne Morris:
In your book you have alleged a lot of the leading C&W figures are involved in this activity?  

Fritz Springmeier:
Yeah, some of them are victims of the mind control; some are abusers of the mind control; some of them are programmers. One of the worst mind control programmers within the industry is Jerry Lee Lewis. He has a very bad reputation. He is infamous among victims of mind control for being an extremely sadistic programmer. When slaves manage to escape, they are very often sent to Jerry Lee Lewis and his cousin, a minister, and also ties in with this as a programmed multiple.  

Wayne Morris:
Do you feel that the use of popular culture and these entertainment industries serves another purpose in terms of preconditioning society as a whole, or manipulating social beliefs?  

Fritz Springmeier:  
Oh yeah, definitely. The whole long-range goal of this, and when I say long-range, it's not going to take them long to get us there at the rate they are going - the end goal of all of this is to eventually create an entire planet of mind controlled slaves that can be controlled by one super computer. They are manipulating our thoughts and our attitudes, and steering us, herding us (they consider us animals - the Illuminati consider themselves god, god men and us to be the animals) they are herding us in the direction they want to us to go. So yeah, the music is definitely playing a role in dehumanizing us, conditioning us, as well as a lot of mind control triggers and messages are passed via the singing. In the Volume 2 book and in the "Deeper Insights" book, I spend quite a few pages going into the codes and the triggers, and I spend several pages explaining what the different songs that are played over the radio - how they are used in triggering mind controlled slaves.  

Wayne Morris:
Again, I guess it's part of having a culture permeated with the kind of triggers that just reinforces the programming for the victims.  

Fritz Springmeier:
Right. And if they are going to have their programmed slaves go to a ritual, there is one song, "A Heartache Tonight", which will be played over some radio stations. And if I am a mind controlled slave, and it's Friday night, and I hear that song over the radio, I may be programmed to switch alters and go to a pre-arranged location where I am picked up or whatever, and participate in a satanic sabbat. They are able to use the music industry in a whole number of ways.  

Wayne Morris:
To you knowledge, Fritz, what groups are involved currently in using mind control slavery?  

Fritz Springmeier:
Currently, mind controlled slaves are used by intelligence organizations; occult groups; military groups; big and small religious groups. Many various criminals who are in each of these groups network together and in fact, their own word to describe themselves is "The Network". If we are a little bit more specific about what groups - I was giving you the broad, general categories. Examples within the US military are Delta Forces, First Earth Battalion, are mind controlled units. Then you've got mind controlled slaves scattered throughout all of the regular branches. Within your intelligence organizations some of the big offenders are MI-6 and of course their P-4 section, and Naval Intelligence which is ONI. A lot of government organizations like Bureau of Narcotics, FBI, NASA. When we look at what kind of occult groups are using this trauma-based total mind control you will see the KKK, Neo-Nazis, OTO. You will see groups like the Freemasons and the Oddfellows. Then you get more hardcore occult groups like the Church of Satan, the Children of Lucifer, Society of the Dark Lily. Religions? You've got your smaller religions like this group that was so interested in Halle Boppe to the extent they committed suicide. Small groups like that. According to the information I have, David Koresh and his leaders were mind controlled slaves who were conducting group control methods over their Branch Davidian group. You've got your small groups like this clear up to your large groups like the Catholic Church, the Mormon Church, and the Charismatic Movement.  

Wayne Morris:
Some of the branches of the military you mentioned - the Delta Forces and the First Earth Battalion - are you saying that all of the people involved in these forces are mind controlled?  

Fritz Springmeier:
Within Delta Forces, 100% of them are. Within the First Earth Battalion, from what I understand, that could also be 100% of its units are under mind control. Within the Army - the Army has special task groups that - for instance - I am sorry to say, but unfortunately it's true - the US Army has select squads of assassins that travel even around the USA and eliminate people. From my inside information on that, these squads are not entirely made up of mind controlled slaves - they have a variety of control methods over these types. I guess what I am saying is, that although you may find a smattering of mind controlled slaves used in various branches of the military, those first two that I mentioned are the only ones that I know of that are entirely made up of mind controlled robots.  

Wayne Morris:
These military operatives - would they have been subjected to the trauma-based conditioning from childhood?  

Fritz Springmeier:
Yes. That's what I am talking about.  

Wayne Morris:
How typically do people who end up in these forces get introduced to the mind control? Through their families?  

Fritz Springmeier:
Well these are victims of mind control that would have been placed under mind control in childhood.  

Wayne Morris:
Typically would they be from military families?  

Fritz Springmeier:
They would be from a wide variety. If you have looked at the way the military does things, there is a lot of what they call "military brats" - the children of military men that then are put into positions of responsibility.  

Wayne Morris:
To your awareness, has the corporate world used mind control in any way?  

Fritz Springmeier:
Yes, the corporate world does use mind controlled slaves. Several examples that pop immediately into my mind are ARCO - some of your listeners may have read "Angels don't play this HAARP" by Begich and Manning. If they haven't, I recommend the book. You will read quite a bit about ARCO which did all kinds of HAARP research. ARCO did a lot of research and the branch of ARCO which is APPI held some of the patents. They also worked with E Systems which held some of the patents for HAARP research. ARCO is one of the worst offenders, at least in terms of what I have discovered from victims of mind control that I have been in contact with. They are one of the worst, so that probably explains why they were given a highly sensitive project like HAARP.
Another company that was given sensitive work to do was Gunderson. Here in Portland Gunderson Steel has been making a large number of special order rail cars which have shackles and cupolas for guards. It is a very sensitive secret project which has been farmed out to 11 major railcar producers. Gunderson is one of these.
And these railcars are to be used to transport civilians to all these already-built concentration camps across America. Gunderson is another one of these companies that uses mind control slaves. I am speaking with firsthand knowledge about that because I have spoken with some of the programmed multiples that work at Gunderson.
Another corporation that comes to mind is a big, corporate conglomerate - Disney, Capital Cities, ABC - the three of them went together and made themselves a nice, big corporate conglomerate. They produce porn and they do some other activities with the programmed multiple slaves.  

Wayne Morris:
Just getting back to ARCO, we are actually going to be interviewing Nick Begitch in a future show and talking about the HAARP project in particular. I understand there are mind control elements to that project in particular. The information you found is in addition to that - they have been using mind controlled, trauma-based conditioned slaves as well? V
Fritz Springmeier
Right. His book doesn't talk about mind controlled slaves being used by ARCO - his book is about this technology that they are installing in Alaska. It is a Star Wars-type technology that works in the atmosphere and manipulates things electronically - electromagnetic radiation.  

Wayne Morris:
Yeah. It's a huge antenna array that shoots high frequency energy into the ionosphere. V
Fritz Springmeier
Besides communicating with satellites, it can actually change the weather. It can also manipulate the way people think in a geographical area that has been hit by its electromagnetic radiation.  

Wayne Morris:
One of the side effects apparently is extra low frequency energy that is reflected back to earth which is the frequency that our brain operates on.
What typically would these companies use mind controlled slaves for?  

Fritz Springmeier
Sensitive projects that have to be kept under wraps by the New World Order. The production of railcars to haul civilians to concentration camps. Our government has kept the concentration camp project pretty low key.  

Wayne Morris:
So these people would be used to work on these projects and the company ensuring that they don't talk about it outside.
You spoke of the Illuminati being an extension of mystery religions and I wonder if you could tell our listeners what were the mystery religions, and what was their role in history?  

Fritz Springmeier
You have asked two questions. One of the people who is well worth quoting is Manley P. Hall. He is both a Grand Master Illuminati and a Grand Master in the Freemasons. In his book, "The Secret Teachings of All Ages", he said that the mystery religions were the channel through which the light to mankind was disseminated. (p.29) The mystery religions claimed to the ancient world that they had revelation knowledge that would help enlighten and save people. They claimed that by joining them, and then going through the secret rituals, that you would elevate yourself. They claimed that you would become divine, or that you would reunite with your divine self if you went through the rituals and got to the highest, deepest levels of their secrets. That's what they were telling people on the outside. There are a lot of different ways to look at a phenomenon and I want to bring in a couple of other angles. First, Swinbourne Kleimer, a high ranking Freemason and Rosicrucian leader, said that there was a secret body that ruled and controlled all the various ancient mystery religions in the ancient world - Europe, Egypt, Babylon, clear over to Indian. You can read this claim in his book "Ancient Mystic Oriental Freemasonry" on p. 84-85. I can agree with him. What he is referring to here - the one secret body that will control all the various mystery religions - was what we call today The Illuminati. The Illuminati is the continuation of that secret controlling body. Freemasonry is the outer symbology of the ancient mystery religions, but if you want the hardcore rituals of the ancient mystery religions, those are the ones that are performed by the Illuminati.
And what was their role in history? They played an exceptionally role in history. If one thinks about the power that kings have, who are kings dependent on? Kings must work through other people and they are dependent on their advisors, and their financiers. You can't have a king going off and making a war unless he has money, so he is depending on those financiers. The financiers are dependent on trade and production of goods. The mystery religions, or secret societies, had so much power because they controlled the trade guilds with the trade secrets on how to produce the different goods. For instance the art of making armour, or the art of making a long bow, or the art of making a venetian war ship, or getting closer to home - the roots of Freemasonry go back to the masonic builders guild and the architectural knowledge to design and build a cathedral was controlled by trade guilds which were controlled by these mystery religions, these secret societies. You could be the king of a country, but you were still under the control of these mystery religions and secret societies. The man who supposedly converted the Roman Empire over to Christianity was the head of the Mithra mystery religion. They have played an extremely powerful and important part in history. They have controlled the priesthood and the trade guilds. But also there are a couple of ways they have played a continuous role in history in that they have guided human endeavours because the Illuminati, the mystery religions, have what they call "The Keepers of the Great Plans". That's not just my own opinion. Manley P. Hall, the Illuminati kingpin, in at least one of his books, goes into how the mystery religions of the great plan to bring in this great New World Order.  

Wayne Morris:
What was this great plan?  

Fritz Springmeier
Part of it goes back to the idea of the Golden Age of the Millenium. That's an important concept for me to talk about. I will be stepping on a few people's toes here. Your Christians are really unaware of where their concept of the millenium came from. They think that it comes from the bible, but if they go back historically they will see that William Miller, who started the Adventist movement and started talking about millenium, was a high ranking Freemason. He predicted that Christ would return in 1844. The question is, did Christ return in 1844? Most people, because we have a limited perspective on things, would say no, he didn't. But there was a man called Nabob who appeared in Persia, and he said I am Christ, and he started the Bahai religion. He fulfilled William Miller's prophecy. The Freemasons were the ones who introduced the Bahai religion to America, and they did it through the Chicago Masonic Temple around the turn of the century. The Bahai religion is committed to a one world government, a new world order, and a one world religion. There was this Masonic Oriental Order of the Magi and they were the hardcore group within the Chicago Masonic Temple who started the Bahai religion in this country. These are the kinds of things that I tried to expose so that people see how this all interconnects.
A very brilliant man, James H. Billington, who was the librarian of the Library of Congress, wrote a book, "Fire in the Minds of Men" and the Illuminati didn't realize what he was doing. He kind of blindsided. He was a member of the Council of Foreign Relations so he as one of them. They thought he was one of theirs. This book goes through and it talks about where the word "revolution" came from - it came from the occult societies. The word "revolution" which we use today to mean "armed rebellion" didn't have that meaning in the beginning. The way it began to be used to mean armed rebellion to overthrow the old order and establish something new, was because occult societies, like the Freemasons who had been behind all of the revolutions of modern history from the American Revolution on - have all been created by the Freemasons and the Illuminati. Billington goes back in and traces how all the revolutions were started by this occult elite. The term revolution came from the occult idea that we were going to revolve ourselves back to the Golden Age. There is this great quest for the Golden Age, this millenialism. That's what communism is about. If you look at the early founders of communism - they were trying to revolve us back through revolution to the Golden Age that had been lost.  

Wayne Morris:
What was their idea of what a Golden Age consisted of?  

Fritz Springmeier
Socialized communistic type society. This is why when you read masonic prophets, like H.G. Wells who wrote a number of books on how the New World Order could be brought about, the Fabian Socialists, etc. who have all these detailed plans - it's always for a socialistic, communistic type utopia.  

Wayne Morris:
But with a fascist leadership it seems ...  

Fritz Springmeier
Yes. (laughs) On the surface it sounds really hunky-dory. It sounds really great. But it ends up more like Animal Farm and George Orwell.  

Wayne Morris:
I would also like to talk about what the relation of intelligence groups such as the CIA, the DIA and the MI-6 is to the Illuminati.  

Fritz Springmeier
There's a very close relationship. You will notice with MI-6, in the first few decades of their existence (they came into existence at the turn of the century), they hired only women who came from elite Illuminati families. If you were a female working with MI-6, you were referred to as Queenie, and they really were Illuminati queens. We go back and look at who set up these organizations, who runs these organizations. Look at the CIA for instance. People that understand what the Council for Foreign Relations is all about and how that's an Illuminati front will understand better what I am talking about. You look at Dulles, McCone, Helms, Slesinger, Bush, Turner, Casey - you just go down your list of directors of the CIA - and they were members of the Council for Foreign Relations. Not only that, but they were members of other organizations that are Illuminati fronts. Turner was a Rhodes scholar which is an entry point for Illuminati. The Astors helped found the Rhodes scholars. Casey and McCone - both of whom were Knights of Malta. Look at the membership of the Knights of Malta, 50% black nobility. I am talking about black in the context of the black (guelph) European aristocratic bloodlines - the black (.....s) were a very powerful bloodline that have controlled Europe for many centuries. General Walter Bedell Smith was head of the CIA - from 1950 to 1953 - working in US intelligence - he was one of the co-founders of the Bilderbergers. Prince Bernhardt (Illuminati) was the Chairman of the original Bilderbergers. One of the late Chairs was Peter Rupert (Lord Carrington) was Order of St. John which is the Protestant version of the Knights of Malta. He was a director of a number of the Rothschild organizations like the Rio Tinto Zinc Corporation. He was a member of the Order of the Garter, which is very significant; and a member of the Order of Osiris. The Order of the Garter is one of the primary organizations which was given the responsibility to be in charge of the plans to bring in the New World Order by the Illuminati, and to give continuity from one generation to another. The Order of the Garter is extremely powerful. Your coat of arms etc. is all controlled by the Order of the Garter which is set up in covens of 13, groups of 13. If you have ever looked at heraldry you will know how important this is. The Bilderbergers is also set up in groups of 13, the inner committee is 13.  

Wayne Morris:
Henry Kissinger is a prominent member of the Bilderbergers. What is his involvement in that group, to your awareness?  

Fritz Springmeier
I don't know that he is a member himself, but he is a member of MI-6, he has been a member of P2 Freemasonry, involved with a lot of things. He is a big player for them to implement their agenda. I do not know whether he's an actual member within the Illuminati or not, but he has sure been a big player. In fact one day I listened to Henry Kissinger speaking and he said, "We will get a New World Order. We may not get it in our generation, but if we do not get it in our generation, we will get it in the next generation." In other words they are just going to keep trying. That's what the Order of the Garter has been assigned to do. When we look at these different intelligence groups, like the KGB and the CIA, we think we are looking at two groups that are fighting a covert war against each other. However that is only what we are meant to see.
There is a recent book by a Colonel Corsell, "Day After Roswell". His book is eye opening in many ways, in fact it may be hard to get after a little while. There seems to be a movement to suppress it. In his book he talks about how the CIA and the KGB are essentially one organization, and this was back in the 50's. He was tailed by CIA agents even though he was a Colonel in the US Army - he's got the CIA spying on him, trying to find out what he is doing. He has to keep secrets from the CIA. I had an acquaintance whose father is high up in the CIA and he said when he was a teenager, one day his father came by and dropped a bombshell on him in that he couldn't even understand what his father was talking about. His father said out of the blue that the Cold War was a hoax. This teenager who had bought into the appearances the common people are supposed to accept was really confused. He didn't understand. He said it took him years to understand what his father was secretly referring to.
We see these different groups and they appear to be different teams. But it's sort of like coming up to a football field and seeing two teams playing each other - you can't automatically assume they are not from the same school. It may be a scrimmage or an intervarsity game. You will see the hidden hand of the Illuminati in the creation of both the CIA and the KGB. In MI-6 you will see Lord Victor Rothschild running things; Admiral Sir Hugh Sinclair - the Sinclairs are one of these families. MI-5, which is internal security for Britain - their first Director General for many years was Major General Sir Vern Keele. He was a Freemason, and a number of other Director Generals of MI-5 have also been Freemasons and also have been tied to these other organizations. The Director of MI-5 during WWII was Knights of Grace of St. John. You could go on and on showing the overlapping connections.
If you look at Allen Dulles who was the Director of the CIA from 1953-1961 you will see his role with Hitler prior to WWII, working with the international financiers - the bankers of these Illuminati kingpins. You will see his connections to the elite.  

Wayne Morris:
And certainly the information about the CIA facilitating the flight of Nazi war criminals to North America - Dulles was involved in that.  

Fritz Springmeier
Dulles was the man the Illuminati used to inform Hitler that the financiers would support him in his bid for power. He was the guy who brought the good news to Hitler ... hey, you can go for it, we will finance you.  

Wayne Morris:
I would like to talk about another CIA director who was actually recently in Toronto accepting an Honorary Degree at the University of Toronto - George Bush. I wondered if you could talk about his affiliation with Skull & Bones ...  

Fritz Springmeier
Skull & Bones is an entry point into the Illuminati. Researchers have noticed the Skull & Bones, but there are a lot of other organizations which are entry points. Rhodes Scholars, a group in Oxford, there are number of different fraternal organizations. Skull & Bones is not the only one - but that's the one George Bush joined. There is also Scroll & Key, Rezilius, and some other fraternal organizations. One of the things George Bush did in his initiation ceremony for Skull & Bones was to lie in manure and recount all of his sexual exploits.  

Wayne Morris:
I understand that's an initiation ritual for all members of Skull & Bones.  

Fritz Springmeier
Right.  

Wayne Morris:
You mentioned at the top of the interview that George Bush was related to some royal family - is that the House of Windsor?  

Fritz Springmeier:
He is a distant relative of Prince Charles and Queen Elizabeth. It's a distant relationship.  

Wayne Morris:
In your opinion, what has George Bush's role been in attempting to implement a global government?  

Fritz Springmeier:
He's been a criminal, and he has provided leadership for criminal activity. He's been involved with creating wars, with drug running, with pornography and mind control.  

Wayne Morris:
Are you aware of any information that George Bush is also a pedophile?  

Fritz Springmeier:
Oh yeah. Cathy O'Brien for instance, who I have visited with, her daughter spent time with George Bush and other people that are familiar with the mind control and what's going on have also said that the man was a pedophile.  

Wayne Morris:
Do you think that people in groups trying to bring about global control are planning a take-over attempt at a certain point in time, or do you think they will continue this New World Order more gradually as they have been doing through expanded economic blocks and so forth?  

Fritz Springmeier:
It's a combination of gradual, spiced with some cataclysmic events. From the vantage point of being a planner, and having the actual plans and details, you would see that things are being implemented on a continuous basis. For instance, I have mentioned previously that the Panama Canal and Suez Canal were planned by the Illuminati back around 1800 if not before. Those were things they wanted to implement on the way to a New World Order.
When you see cataclysmic events occur, let's say there is a nuclear exchange or aliens all of a sudden arrive, they seem cataclysmic and instantaneous to those of us who are the common people. But the planning for these events has gone on for a long time. So yes, it will be gradual, if you are looking at the implementation of these plans - but the appearance of some of these things will be rather cataclysmic. In order to bring in the New World Order as they would like to implement it, they want us to ask them to bring in what they want. So for instance in WWII when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour, the Americans wanted to give away their freedoms to make their government more powerful. They will be implementing things that will cause us to ask us to do what they want to do.  

Wayne Morris:
What kinds of scenarios are possible?  

Fritz Springmeier:
For instance in Australia - where this madman went in and he gunned down a lot of innocent people - children and families - boy - right after that they ramrodded through gun legislation and approximately half a million weapons were turned in without a fight by the Australians because of this horrendous massacre that took place. The same things are going to happen in this country and on this surface it's going to appear like this is just a madman who flipped out and he gunned down a lot of people. But from "their" vantage-point, they have spent a lot of years planning and programming.  

Wayne Morris:
And one could argue that it has already started to happen in terms of things like the Oklahoma City bombing and bringing in the counter-terrorism bill immediately after.  

Fritz Springmeier:
Yes. Exactly. I would say yes to both aspects. It will be both gradual and it will have a cataclysmic impact.  

Wayne Morris:
How, in your opinion, could mind control be used in one of these scenarios to create cataclysmic events?  

Fritz Springmeier:
I use the term "New World Order" but you could also use "World Order" because the same people who are bringing in the new world order have actually been controlling the world all along. It's really not "new" at all - it's just going into a more intense phase where the control is going to be more intense, and the mind control is going to be more pervasive and powerful. These people have been controlling things from behind the scenes for a long time. We go back and look at the power the British Empire had and the power that the French Empire had - and you ask yourself, well who was running the British Empire and the French Empire? And you see the same people, the same families. I had mentioned earlier how many American presidents were related and how we have really been controlled by these oligarchal families here in the USA.  

Wayne Morris:
How would mind control possibly be used in a take-over scenario?  

Fritz Springmeier:
One way that it could be used is if people look at the Charles Bronson movie, "Telethon", you will see the end result of this mind control. A housewife is called, given a fairy-tale ditty, and she goes out and blows up a military installation. There are a lot of people with programming to do acts of sabotage and assassination.
There are a lot of things that have to be accomplished. The weakest link in the chain is going to bust - and in order to implement all of these things from behind the scenes - you have to have mind controlled people salted in at all different levels to ensure that nobody reveals the secrets, that people do the job they are supposed to, that people forget the things they are supposed to forget. For instance banking - in the last few years a lot of banks have gone bankrupt. That has been very quietly covered over by bank mergers. A bank goes belly-up - they will bring in a bigger bank and swallow it up and call it a merger instead of a bankruptcy. How do they keep these things secret? I know some programmed multiples personally working in the banking system, and I do not know the full extent of what these people are used for, I can only speculate. They are definitely using mind controlled slaves within the banking system to hide their manipulations.  

Wayne Morris:
Quite a number of victims of mind control have spoken about end-times programming. What can you tell us about that?  

Fritz Springmeier:
The end-times programming refers to programming geared to bringing in New World Order and the reign of the anti-christ. It has a lot of colour programming - the list of people who are to be dealt with includes a red list comprised of those who are anti-new-world-order opposition leaders who are to be executed about two weeks before martial law. The blue list are people who are against what is being done, but they are going to attempt to program them, arrest them to see if they can correct their thinking. Probably a lot of them will be killed in the midst of reprogramming. The final list, the yellow list, is people who will be rounded up for re-education camps after martial law.
In the programming there are yellow flags at half-mast; yellow dog on run; blue fish at home; and I know this from work with mind control victims. Colour codes are used because they will be using a lot of mind control slaves, including foreign troops (eg. Russians) to implement these things. It is easier to use colour coding. Things will be implemented with activation codes which also use colour codes, eg. blue ray, red ray, purple ray, green ray. Those will go to team leaders. If the listeners are familiar with Amway they understand uplines and downlines - a team leader can have perhaps four people under him - he calls them - each of them calls four people. Those will be colour-coded. Each one of the eg. four will have a colour (blue ray, red ray, purple ray, green ray). And then some of the sites are colour coded. Internally within the minds of the slaves, some of them have internal crystals -- these crystals are timed -- they could also be rocks -- they are timed to explode or release certain programming at a certain point in time. These crystals will have colour codes as well.
If the therapist begins getting into end-time programming, that's one of the things they are going to notice. They are also going to notice mountain-tops are used quite a lot for meeting place or significant places. A lot of international cooperation is involved in their plans and programming. Common news events are often-times triggers -- eg. Lady Diana dying -- Princess Di's death caused certain mind control slaves to trigger off that news event.
End times programming also involves (because of the ushering in of the reign of the anti-christ) demonology involved -- the Demon "Purson" involved with the programming. His job is the Revelator of the anti-christ. He will know a victim's system. You will see "Apollo" -- Son of Apollo is the anti-christ -- so Apollo is the father of the anti-christ. You will see Escolapius (sp) - he is the Demon of healing. You see a lot of healing going on in the Charismatic Movement -- some of the ministers in this Movement are actually satanists and I know from eye witnesses that in secret they carry out satanic rituals where they attempt to gain the power of Escolapius which is a demonic healing power. When they go into these churches they use mind control and this demonic healing power to heal Christians and then tell people "God healed you". They don't state to them which god ...
Another aspect that is characteristic to the end-times programming is the involvement of the aliens. A lot of alien programming, plans with aliens, and a whole series of programming categories related to catastrophes. I am now speaking to therapists - when you get into the part of the system that is involved with end-times catastrophes, you will get into working with _____ alters. And another area involves a lot of computer control of people. And I am still only in the beginning of understanding all of this. There is an actual computer at 666 Connecticut Avenue in Washington, DC which is called the Janus 2 computer. When victims start spewing out their programming they start talking about the Janus coding which has something to do with tracking and reprogramming, and ties in with computers.
Then there is the Ambassador coding (sub-codes include setting fires; suicide; doing an act of violence against somebody). Emperor coding. Morse coding.  

Wayne Morris:
What in a general sense would they be programmed to do.  

Fritz Springmeier:
We are not talking about just running drugs or prostitution -- we are talking about control of society as a whole. One of the scarier options they have is to bring in a mock alien invasion. They will have flying saucers with aliens arrive. Because they control so many different aspects of society, even though a number of people like myself would say "beware of this, beware of that" we would be drowned out by this orchestra of people in different sectors of society (congressmen, newsmen, religious leaders) saying whatever the plan is for them to say. Of course there will be controlled opposition. There will be a few people saying, "I distrust these aliens, or this agenda, or what the government is doing" but they will be controlled opposition who will gather all the opposition to what they want to do and raise the hopes of people who are against this hidden agenda but will not actually carry through and stop it.  

Wayne Morris:
Do you believe that the governments of the world have UFO technology that they have been developing? This alien invasion would be a staged invasion using their own military technology ...  

Fritz Springmeier:
There is no question in my mind about it. Another agenda they have is to destroy faith in national governments. That has been divided into thousands of different projects. Jehovah's Witnesses who go door to door. If you look at their literature, it works very hard at destroying faith in nationalism. But who would suspect the Jehovah's Witnesses? Their Watchtower Society is actually an Illuminati front. In fact one of their members accidentally stumbled on to a big clue to this - he noticed there were thousands of hidden occult symbols in the Watchtower artwork. There would be a picture of a waterfall in a Watchtower magazine, but when you looked at it really closely you would realize it was a skull. It's like Currier & Ives used to have these hidden pictures - look at a tree and see other pictures. They have these occult messages hidden in the Watchtower literature - like a goat leading a herd of sheep, things like that. Or a thief running off with occult jewellery with an all-seeing eye and things like this.
They have a lot of hidden messages. Who would think of Jehovah's Witnesses being used? They use J-W's to access some of their slaves. Who can go door-to-door without suspicion? I brought Cisco out of the Illuminati. It doesn't mean I am the only person who ever helped her, but these J-W's will come to the door, and I will say, "No, don't answer the door." Her natural inclination would have been, "oh they are just Jehovah Witnesses." Interestingly the same couple who came to our door, to try to talk to Cisco, showed up the next day clear across town at another victim's doorstep - very strange. I know the Jehovah Witnesses from the inside and how they map out their territories and how they go door to door - and what happened was not normal. You had to have a team of people who were trying to access slaves that were getting free, and their cover was to be Jehovah Witnesses.
It sounds like I am getting a little bit off track, but what I am trying to say is - it is in their objective to destroy faith in the national government. How do you destroy a national government? You create civil war, create distrust of that government, bankrupt that government. There are all these different projects to bring down the American government, and bring down respect for our government - they play both ends against the middle.
Implementation of the end-times agendas involves a lot of agendas and a lot of people scurrying around doing different things -- until you see the whole picture and how it all fits together, it just looks like a lot of chaos.  

Wayne Morris:
I wanted to come back to your point about them creating a chaotic situation, such as some of the scenarios you have been talking about. In order for the public to then ask for the military to step in, or for the United Nations to step in, and basically ask for a state of martial law -- is that your take on how they are going to do this?  

Fritz Springmeier:
We will ask them for what they want to do. People have sat in on Illuminati meetings where they gave their 20, 30, 40 year plans -- the key word to all of those plans was that it would happen "naturally" - as if it was naturally happening. In order to implement that, you have a lot of mind controlled slaves out there. Another example, they want to destroy the continuity of religious beliefs in the USA. The USA was basically founded by a Protestant majority, there were very few Catholics when the USA was started. In other words, the people of this country had a common agreement -- one outlook on morality.
Fritz Springmeier:
When people have a moral belief system, Buddhist or whatever, if it's a very strong belife system, it's hard to change them. What they are trying to do is fragment our belief system. They have brought in a lot of foreign belief systems into the USA but you also have all of these New Age gurus popping up and creating their own little New Age groups. In the bigger picture, it's to destroy the fabric of a unified moral response, and a lot of these New Age leaders (eg. Elizabeth Claire Prophet - Church Universal and Triumphant) are mind controlled slaves. Jay Z. Knight, that's who she goes by - the entity she channels - she's a mind control slave. These are New Age leaders and they are gathering flocks. One of the gals who became a friend of mine who left the C.U.T. and became a Christian, in having worked with her, I noticed some red flags that maybe she, as one of the leaders of Elizabeth Claire Prophet's group, was a mind control victim, and she's not the only evidence I have that not only are the leaders under mind control who start the groups, but part of their flocks are mind control victims who are being programmed to join these cults.
Imagine if you are a religious leader and you get secret help from the establishment and you have people being programmed to join your organization, how that gives you an edge over you or I starting a religion. So that's one reason why we have such a chaotic religious atmosphere out there where all of these gurus and religious leaders are starting all these small weird groups.  

Wayne Morris:
You talked about Dr. Ewen Cameron as being one of the mind control programmers. I would like to know specifically what his and McGill University's contribution to the development of trauma based mind control is, to your awareness.  

Fritz Springmeier:
I don't know that I have a great deal to share. I know that St. Mary's Hospital there in Montreal was used by these people for programming. In the basement they had what was known as The Zombie Room, and an isolation room and the Grid Room. From various victims of mind control I know that various Catholic Church institutions were used in Quebec. As far as Cameron's personal contribution, I know that he worked for years assisting in the programming and research. The things that he researched were classified, and I don't have a good grasp of what he discovered. I know that if we read "Journey Into Madness" by Gordon Thomas, in a couple of places in his book he makes fun of Dr. Cameron. He says that Cameron's grants hadn't produced any tangible value to the CIA or that there was a Dr. Gottlieb who was supposedly investigating the doctor and questioning whether Cameron had done anything to help the agents. I consider those kinds of statements the typical kind of CIA disinformation that is put out. They typically say "we did research but we didn't find anything of value." I have a hard time believing that Dr. Cameron who was on the leading edge of mind control and who was in touch with the top mind control programmers of his day and learning techniques from them - that the man was of no value to the CIA. I am not trying to put down Gordon Thomas' book because I would recommend it to people, but this is the type of disinformation that spews forth from so many different sources. Why was he head of the prestigious American Psychiatric Association, and the World Psychiatric Association? Why was he put in charge of so many very powerful organizations by the establishment if he was so worthless to their agenda?  

Wayne Morris:
Just in a general sense, what were the types of institutions that were involved in the development of mind control across North America?  

Fritz Springmeier:
Good question. I can quote them. Admiral Stansfield Turner, on August 3, 1977, told a Senate Investigating Committee that in the USA, prisons, pharmaceutical companies, hospitals, 44 medical colleges, American universities and corporations were helping the CIA carry out the mind control experiments. I believe that using the word "experiments" is a little bit of disinformation. This was operational programming. They were taking the people who were coming out of these mind control experiments and using them. They were far more than just experiments. But those were the kind of institutions that were assisting in the programming.  

Wayne Morris:
Can you make a statement about the role of psychiatry in the development of mind control?  

Fritz Springmeier:
They have been very important to develop the mind control from being more what we would call training to being placed on a very scientific basis. There has been extensive research into the mind by psychiatrists. That research has been invaluable for developing the mind control technologies. Behavior modification (Skinner, Pavlov, etc) findings were directly implemented in teaching various alters to do certain things. If you read our Volume 2 book and the Deeper Insights book, I go into how each of the different alters are created (ie. Gatekeepers). At some point a Gatekeeper alter will be taken to a door and then using behavior modification techniques, severely torturing the alter, they are taught not to step beyond the door, but hold their place at that door. The research that shows that this type of training would be effective came from behavior modification and psychiatrists.  

Wayne Morris:
Do you think that some psychiatrists may have been unwitting in helping develop this technology?  

Fritz Springmeier:
There are several different levels of participation. People who are just plain evil; people who are coerced, blackmailed, mind control victims themselves; then a level of people below that who are unwitting dupes of the system. My father was never part of the system in the sense of he never joined any occult societies, he is not in favour of a New World Order, philosophically he's not aligned with them. He's just somebody who believes in science and he believes science can help the world. He wanted to help the world, make a positive difference. The Illuminati deflect what these researchers want for good and use it for evil purposes. I have a hard time with one scientist I was talking with earlier this year. He developed biological weapons for the USa (viruses, anthrax, etc.). He said knowledge is neutral, it is neither good nor bad. It's how it's used. I am thinking in my head, "are you that stupid, that you don't realize the people you are working for and who are going to use this stuff are going to use it for evil? ..." A lot of these scientists are so focused on the tiny little details of what they are trying to research, and ego plays a part in this. They want to discover something - their ego, pride, concentration in the research doesn't allow them to step back and say "what is this going to be used for?"  

Wayne Morris:
The information that we have been talking about has been quite depressing, and I think a lot of people are going to be affected by it. What message of hope do you have for people after learning about all of this?  

Fritz Springmeier:
There's two sides to a coin, and we have been talking about the negative side of the coin. The positive side is that a lot of the technologies that have been developed could actually be used for the advancement of mankind, to benefit mankind. Another positive is that in spite of the forces that are trying to destroy humanity, there are a lot of positive forces. There are quite a number of independent researchers, and they haven't gotten much media attention except ridicule - people have been researching free energy, and they have made a lot of advancements - so the common person would not be dependent upon the establishment for any of its energy. Another area of research is alternative medicine, amazing discoveries that really liberate people from establishment medicine. You have the internet and photocopy machines which have given the common person the ability to transmit and gather a lot of information without being part of the establishment. You have home schooling. There are developments that are taking place that do not rely on the establishment monopolies. These monopolies are fragile and they can be broken.
Another positive is that in spite of the monumental power they have, people like myself have been able to slip through their control cracks and have been able to free people from the deepest depths of the organizations. I have been able to get out so much information exposing their methods and their agenda. I am saying this to show these people are not invincible.  

Wayne Morris:
I would like to thank you very much for joining us on this radio series. It's been absolutely fascinating talking to you, and I would like to thank you for bringing this information out.  

Fritz Springmeier:
I very much appreciate this chance, and I want to congratulate your courage and your love for the truth in bringing this to the Canadian and the American people.

Wayne Morris:
Stay tuned next week for an interview with Cisco Wheeler, Fritz Springmeier's co-author, and former Illuminati family mind controlled slave. CBC TV is going to be airing a few productions on mind control this week. The Fifth Estate is supposed to be airing an investigation which was supposed to be about Montreal psychiatrist, Dr. Pivnicki (Mila Mulroney's father) and his role in covering up the Cameron mind control experiments. I am not sure if that's what is on this week - I don't know if they had to change that due to Brian Mulroney's attempt to clear his name. Also one week today, Sunday January 11, 1998 at 8-10pm will be Part One of The Sleep Room, which is a documentary based on Anne Collins' book "In The Sleep Room" based on Dr. Ewen Cameron and his CIA funded experiments on his psychiatric patients at the Allen Memorial Psychiatric Institute in Montreal. Dr. Cameron was the target of two lawsuits against the CIA and the Canadian government by his psychiatric patients who had been unwittingly involved in his experiments which involved electroshock, sensory deprivation, psychic driving, drugs, reportedly in an effort to wipe out a person's mind and create a new personality.
Now throughout this series we have heard an even darker side to Dr. Ewen Cameron's mind control experiments, and that his involvement in trauma conditioning of children. This extreme form of mind control perpetrated against children involved creating and controlling multiple identities through torture, physical, emotional and sexual abuse, hypnosis, drugs, electroshock and structural programming. We have heard from Claudia Mullen and her testimony given to the US Presidential Advisory Committee on Human Radiation Experiments in 1995 about how Dr. Cameron would electroshock her after being involved in an experiment or sexual blackmail operation when she was still a child. We heard from Lynne Moss-Sharman who was experimented on and programmed by Dr. Ewen Cameron along with Dr. Jose Delgado, another well-known CIA mind control doctor, and we heard most recently from Fritz Springmeier claiming that Dr. Cameron was an associate of Dr. Josef Mengele and that Mengele had been smuggled out of Europe to work in the USA, continuing his work refining mind control for the CIA. Information from his work has Ewen Cameron and Josef Mengele working together creating mind control operatives.
Now, is the CBC going to deal with these allegations and the testimony in their upcoming documentary? Well, we will see ...
You have been listening to the International Connection on CKLN.

The Canadian Broadcasting Company's

The Fifth Estate TV Show

Ewen Cameron and
The Sleep Room

January 6, 1998

As I transcribed the tape some words seemed to change their position in sentences, or change into other words. This is due to interference to the tape machine's audio electronics by the high-tech electronics of the "controllers," who obviously have a sound studio complete with actors. They appeared to be minor changes not affecting the meaning of sentences, at least hopefully. - Ed Light

Announcer:

Behind closed doors, human guinea pigs in shocking mind control experiments conducted by our government and the CIA.
Female victim:

I had no identity, I had no memory, I'd never existed in the world before.
Announcer:

The horrors of "the sleep room" -- next on "The Fifth Estate."
...Interlude...
Announcer:

Tonight!
Female victim:

The man whom I had thought cared about what happened to me, didn't give a damn. I was a fly. Just a fly.
Announcer:

Revisiting Canada's infamous "sleep room."
Female victim:

I was -- had to be toilet trained; I was a vegetable.
Announcer:

In the 1960s Dr. Ewen Cameron conducted CIA funded experiments on troubled Canadian patients he was meant to help.
Male victim:

It wasn't treatment for anything. It was out and out guinea pigs for brainwashing experiments.
Announcer:

A Fifth Estate investigation revealed how one Canadian government secretly supported these horrific experiments, and then another blocked the victims' fight for justice.
Male voice:

The Mulrooney government, in effect, stabbed its citizens in the back at every turn.
Announcer:

Linden MacIntyre [spelling?] with the real life victims of "the sleep room," and behind the scenes of a new CBC movie about this nightmare chapter in our history.
...Interlude...
Linden MacIntyre:

Welcome to the Fifth Estate. When Canadians first learned that CIA brainwashing experiments had been carried out on Canadians in Canada, with the knowledge of our government, it was a tremendous shock. As the Fifth Estate was first to report in 1984, the work that Dr. Ewen Cameron oversaw at his Montreal clinic was shocking. Now, the story of Cameron's experiments, and the victims' struggle for justice, have been made into a riveting movie, to be broadcast on CBC Television this Sunday and Monday nights. For the victims of the "sleep room," the horror has never really ended.

Even if you don't know the history of the Allen Memorial Institute in Montreal, it looks like a natural setting for a movie -- a horror movie, maybe.
...women's scream...

But then the truth of what happened to hundreds of psychiatric patients there a long time ago is a horror story.
Male voice:

O.K. So we're on route, guys. Peaceably on.
Linden MacIntyre:

And now, it has become a movie -- a dramatized account of a bleak chapter in the history of Canadian psychiatry, produced by a former Fifth Estate documentary maker, Bernard Zuckerman.

The central character in the movie is a world-renowned psychiatrist at the Allen in the early 60s. His name was Dr. Ewen Cameron.
Male voice:

It's the classic story of good turning to evil in its most simplistic terms. Dr. Cameron started off as someone who is probably one of the most enlightened psychiatrists in the country, but then something happened, and whatever happened, suddenly here is this enlightened doctor, this noble doctor, who begins doing more and more and more bizarre experiments on his patients to the point where he is destroying the minds of hundreds of people.
Male speaker [giving a speech - could be Franklin Roosevelt]:

These are the days, and ours are the occasions.
Linden MacIntyre:

Inspired by the exuberant post-war optimism and technology, Cameron thought he'd achieved a major scientific breakthrough -- how to repair a damaged human mind. The media rejoiced -- even coined a phrase which would become a tragically silly oxymoron: "beneficial brainwashing."

Linda McDonald was a young mother with five children under the age of five, when she started feeling low. Her family doctor knew just the man to make her better.
Linda McDonald:

I was tired, I was depressed, my back was hurting -- and so he said, to the children's father, why don't you go to Montreal and visit this Dr. Ewen Cameron, this famous man, who has all of these accolades, and have an assessment.
So we went. My medical file even says that I took my guitar with me; and that was the end of my life.
Within three weeks Dr. Cameron decided to call me an acute schizophrenic, and shipped me up to the "sleep room."
Linden MacIntyre:

How long did they put you to sleep for?
Linda McDonald:

I was in a coma for 86 days.
Linden MacIntyre:

Eighty-six days of unbroken sleep.
Linda McDonald:

Yeah. Total comatose state.
Linden MacIntyre:

The theory was simple: erase a disturbed mind and start all over again.
One of Dr. Cameron's colleagues at the time was Dr. Peter Roper.
Dr. Peter Roper:

The aim, I think, really, was to wipe out the patterns of thought and behavior which were detrimental to the patient which were sick, and replace them with healthy patterns of thought and behavior. I think this may have been -- uh -- stimulated by the effects of the -- uh -- American troops of the war in Korea, how they seem to have been brainwashed.
Linden MacIntyre:

The movie called "The Sleep Room" dramatizes one technique for brainwashing: extreme sessions of electroshock therapy, massive jolts of electricity three or four times a day for weeks. According to her hospital records, Linda McDonald had one-hundred of these treatments.
She entered hospital for what we can now guess was post-partem depression. Her records show the results of shock and radical drug therapy.
May 15th shows some confusion; June 3rd: "Knows her name, but that's about all." June 11th: "Doesn't know her name."
Linda McDonald:

I was -- had to be toilet trained. I was a vegetable. I had no identity, I had no memory; I had never existed in the world before. Like a baby. Just like a baby that has to be toilet trained.
Linden MacIntyre:

She eventually went home, her depression gone, and her entire previous life gone with it.
Linda McDonald:

This is -- this is one of the twins, in 62 before I went to the Allen, and this is the same one I think. I just look at the pictures and I know that is who they are, but I don't remember them as my children at all. I mean, I know that they came from my body -- um -- but, there's no -- that's all. I don't know, and that's because I was told that. So, these are my children.
Linden MacIntyre:

Robert Loguey [spelling?] was little more than a child himself when he was referred to Dr. Cameron. He was 18, he had a sore leg. His doctor thought it was all in his head, and sent him to the Allen. Like Linda McDonald, he went through a nightmare of shock therapy and drugs, including LSD.
Robert Loguey:

Well, I was given LSD about every second day and -- uh -- injected, and -- uh -- sometimes it was mixed with sodium amethal and other drugs.
Film-maker:

One on one, take two.
Linden MacIntyre:

Most of the drugs were experimental but seemed suitable for brainwashing or, as Cameron preferred to call it, de-patterning.

Then, during the long sleep, the patient would be forced to listen to subliminal messages that were supposed to print new, sometimes bizarre, thoughts on his blank mind.
Robert Loguey:

I was aware of the speaker under my pillow; I was aware of the words.
Linden MacIntyre:

Which were?
Robert Loguey:

"You killed your mother."
Linden MacIntyre:

"You killed your mother."
Robert Loguey:

Yeah.
Linden MacIntyre:

Who was alive and well.
Robert Loguey:

Who was alive and well. And, uh...
Linden MacIntyre:

Over and over again this voice is talking....
Robert Loguey:

Uh, well, like I say, it takes about two seconds to say that message, and this was going on for 23 days, and -- uh -- when I went home, after being there, when I went home my mother was there, and why was she there, and -- it didn't make any sense.
Linden MacIntyre:

So what was going on here? Dr. Ewen Cameron was at one point head of the World Psychiatric Association, and is still admired by some of his former colleagues. Dr. Peter Roper:

What is the possibility that we had a good, well-motivated man whose ego and ambition took charge of his professionalism and led him into some fairly dark places?
Dr. Peter Roper:

Well, I would put that chance as pretty slight. I think it's more likely that -- um -- if he'd been around to defend himself when this story came out, we'd have a perfectly different picture of it.
Linden MacIntyre:

What would he say? Put yourself in his shoes; what would he say?
Dr. Peter Roper:

Uh -- I think he'd say -- uh -- "look, I treated these patients to the best of my ability; I -- uh -- I didn't get all of them well, but most of them I got better than they were.
Movie excerpt, actor:

A travesty. I agree.
Linden MacIntyre:

But in the movie, Dr. Cameron will not come off so well.
Movie excerpt, actor:

They're your patients. Most of these people were discharged as cured.
Linden MacIntyre:

It accurately shows that many of his patients, inaccurately diagnosed as schizophrenics, were permanently damaged by his methods.
Movie excerpt: woman screaming.
Linden MacIntyre:

Eventually even Cameron had doubts about his experiments. He left the Allen in 1964, died of a heart attack three years later. By then, the hospital had quietly abandoned the experiments.
Movie excerpt, actor, angered:

So, these people had nothing. You can't just walk away from this, Cameron! It'll come back and it'll ruin you! You can't walk away!
Linden MacIntyre:

Nobody knows for sure exactly how many people doctor Cameron and his colleagues exposed to the program of chemical and electro-shock treatments they called de-patterning and psychic driving, a process which some experts have since called barbaric.

But many years would pass before there would be any public or official acknowledgment of what those damaged patients had been through. It would take a dramatic disclosure in the late 70s. But the Allen memorial had been part of a cold war program of brainwashing experiments, paid for in part by the CIA. Hidden among its most sensitive files were CIA records documenting a project called MKULTRA.

Between 1957 and 1961 a CIA front funneled about 62,000 dollars US for brainwashing research by Dr. Ewen Cameron.
The American media got the story first, but The Fifth Estate exposed the magnitude of the human tragedy.
Fifth Estate Announcer (historical):

Experimental drugs, including LSD, were administered to human guinea pigs. The patients were never told that their treatment was part of a CIA experiment.
Linden MacIntyre:

One of those patients was Velma Orlikow of Winnepeg. She'd been at the Allen in the late 50s for treatment of depression. She happened to be married to a member of parliament, David Orlikow of the NDP. She'd considered Dr. Cameron a near-saint. Now she was being told she'd been betrayed by him.
Velma Orlikow:

It was an awful feeling to realize, when I found this out, that the man whom I had thought cared about what happened to me didn't give a damn. I was a fly. Just a fly.
Linden MacIntyre:

First she felt hurt. Then she got angry, and decided to sue one of the most powerful institutions in the world, the CIA.
David Orlikow (?):

As a matter of fact, when she said she wanted to sue the CIA I said, "you're crazy, how a couple -- how can an ape[?] from Winnepeg sue the CIA?"
Linden MacIntyre:

But she did, along with eight other former patients -- a massive lawsuit that would consume many years and become an obsession for a distinguished American civil-liberties lawyer named Joseph Rauh.
Joseph Rauh:

Cameron, all he did was what the CIA was in effect asking him to do, and what he said he was going to do, and he did it.
Linden MacIntyre:

Rauh and a young assistant name James Turner knew they were up against a formidable opponent in the CIA, but they thought the odds would be evened a bit by help from a natural ally. They were in for a disappointment.
James Turner:

Well, we expected to have a very potent ally in the form of the Canadian government and, unfortunately, instead of helping their own citizens, because the Canadian government was worried about its possible liability, the Mulrooney government in effect stabbed its citizens in the back at every turn of the litigation.
Linden MacIntyre:

Ottawa actually helped suppress a key piece of information: evidence that CIA officials at the US embassy had actually apologized to the Canadian government when the CIA experiments were first revealed. Jim Turner is still flabbergasted.
James Turner:

You gotta understand how important these apologies and expressions of regret were. This is an admission. This is legally admissible in court because it is one of the parties of the litigation saying, "I did something wrong and I'm sorry I did it." That is prima facie evidence of negligence and of wrong-doing that goes a long, long way to bringing the case to a timely conclusion instead of the protracted ten years of litigation that we had.
Movie excerpt:

And action!

Mr. Mulrooney!
Linden MacIntyre:

The movie underscores the impact of Ottawa's refusal to give the lawyers details of the CIA apology. The lawyers eventually upped the ante. On The Fifth Estate.
Fifth Estate director (historical):

And action.
Announcer:

Tonight on The Fifth Estate, startling revelations about the activities of the CIA in Canada.
Linden MacIntyre:

With a publicity wave gathering momentum, and the strength of the victims' case becoming more apparent, the CIA caved in the day before the trial was to begin. They settled out-of-court for 750,000 dollars. At the time it was the largest settlement the CIA had ever awarded, and it provides a dramatic finale for the movie.
Movie preview, actress:

Because we made them pay. They couldn't beat us! We won. Write that down, mister!
Linden MacIntyre:

Producer Bernard Zuckerman says, besides the financial terms, this was a major moral victory.
Bernard Zuckerman:

Here you've got nine "little" Canadian victims taking on probably the most powerful institution in America, the CIA, and, these "little" Canadians, they win -- they get the CIA to settle and give them money and, in effect, an apology saying, "what we did is wrong."
Linden MacIntyre:

The movie ends with a CIA settlement, but the story didn't end there. Troubling questions would persist, especially about the government of Canada.
So why was Ottawa so ambiguous when it came to helping some Canadian citizens get compensation from Washington for what they endured in a program that was inspired mostly by American Cold War fears?
Well, the answer was simple. The government of Canada was even more deeply involved in the Allen Memorial experiments than the Americans. Dr. Cameron's experiments were funded to the tune of half-a-million dollars by the Federal Department of Health and Welfare during the 50s, and the funding didn't stop then. They kicked in over 51,000 dollars after the CIA project ended in 1961, which was when a young, stressed-out mother named Linda McDonald became part of the Allen Memorial story.
When she discovered that her own government had been funding brainwashing experiments on her, she made a dramatic decision.
[To Linda McDonald] You decided to take on the government of Canada.
Linda McDonald:

Oh, sure. Well, hey, considering what I'd already been through, that was a snap! [Laughs.] You know, what else -- went on?
Linden MacIntyre:

It must have become obvious to you fairly quickly that you were ramming your head into a brick wall.
Linda McDonald:

Yes, yes. I'm stubborn too; it got to the point where every time, whether it was John Crosby or Reina Tishen [spelling?] or then the Honorable Ken Campbell, it got to be -- uh -- "you guys, we're gonna, we're gonna stay alive," and I said that to Brian Mulrooney too, "If you think I'm going away, you've got another thing coming. I'm not going to go away!" [Laughs.] I finally discovered...
Linden MacIntyre:

Linda McDonald would hound the federal government for four years before finally, in 1992, Ottawa grudgingly agreed to compensate her and some of Dr. Cameron's other victims 100,000 dollars each. In exchange, for signing away the right to sue the government or the hospital.
But it was an ambiguous victory. Ottawa refused to acknowledge any wrongdoing at the Allen, a conclusion backed up by a legal review of what happened there. The report, by a prominent progressive conservative lawyer, relied partly on expert advice from Dr. Frederick Grunberg [spelling?], one of Quebec's leading psychiatrists, who made two controversial assertions: the patients hadn't suffered irreparable harm, and that they had consented to the treatment.
Dr. Frederick Grunberg:

Well, when I went to -- uh -- the patient were admitted at -- uh -- the Allen Memorial Institute where patients were went in voluntarily. So, the sort of consent they gave is -- uh -- was sort of general consent to the hospital. So the consent that was given for surgery or any other procedure.
Linda McDonald:

Consent had nothing to do with it. Dr. Cameron did not describe the treatment; he did not clarify; he did not give any way shape or form, any kind of a hint what was going to happen. That's not consent, and, I don't even know whether he talked to me because I'll never remember anyway.
Linden MacIntyre:

Dr. Grunberg shares a widely-held view in his profession about the legacy of Dr. Ewen Cameron.
Dr. Frederick Grunberg:

I think he was a misguided man -- he worked on a sort of a very poor theoretical -- uh -- basis, and I think he was important -- uh -- considering, but I am convinced, still convinced, that -- uh -- he really wanted a therapeutic way through the -- he had this motivation that he was going to break this -- uh -- terrible -- uh -- condition.
Linden MacIntyre:

You seem to be saying, "the things that Cameron did were awful, but he meant well, so we'll forgive him, and the victims, or patients, will have to live with it."
Dr. Frederick Grunberg:

It's not a question of forgiving -- the thing is, we put what he was doing in the perspective of his time, and alot of awful things were going on.
Linden MacIntyre:

Alot of people are saying, considering the accepted practice and the science available at the time, this was an appropriate thing to do to you. What...
Robert Loguey[?]:

It wasn't treatment -- uh -- if that's what you're suggesting, it wasn't treatment for anything; not a toenail, or anything. It was out and out guinea pigs for brainwashing experiments. That's what it was.
Linden MacIntyre:

It's been more than 33 years since the Allen put an end to the practices initiated by its most notorious doctor. In has recovered its world-class reputation as a leader in the treatment of mental illness.
Dr. Peter Roper was dismissed from the Allen two years after Dr. Cameron left. One of the reasons: he insisted on following Dr. Cameron's technique.
Review how you strenuously -- to continue the de-patterning of your patients.
Dr. Peter Roper:

Well, I felt that I had a duty to my patients to give them the best possible treatment, and if there were some who were not responding to any other form of treatment the only thing left was de-patterning for them, then I felt that should be done.
Linden MacIntyre:

You sound -- you sound almost nostalgic for the 50s and 60s.
Dr. Peter Roper:

Oh no, it's not nostalgia; it's the question, I think, that bothers alot of doctors that it's rather sad if they're prevented from having that treatment because of adherence to political or other reasons which have nothing to do with good medical practice.
Linden MacIntyre:

For Linda McDonald, good medical practice in 1963 turned an emotional crisis into a horror that would haunt a lifetime.
[Sound of a gathering.]
Female voice:

Here we are.
Linda McDonald:

It feels strange.
Linden MacIntyre:

This spring she returned to the Ottawa high school where she graduated in 1957.
Anne Highland:

Hi, Linda. I'm Anne Argue[?] Highland. How are you?
Linda McDonald:

Oh! Well, hi.
Anne Highland:

I was in the liars club; I don't know if you remember.
Linda McDonald:

I don't remember at all!
Anne Highland:

Oh, well that's normal.
Linda McDonald:

And all of these people -- we knew all of these people.
Linden MacIntyre:

She has no memory of this place, or those times, or even of who she was back then.
Linda McDonald:

Oh, here I am. Look at me! You did call me Lindy?

[Back to interview.]

I am who I am today. My family tells me that I am very much like the Linda that they knew when I was growing up: gregarious, always talking, laughing, singing, happy, positive person. I have no memory of that person; all I'm grateful for is that Cameron might have been able to wipe a memory but he couldn't wipe a spirit.
Announcer:

The Fifth Estate will return in a moment...
[End of Cameron segment.]